Bail Bonds Scams

Getting a call that someone you love has been arrested is scary enough. Getting that call from someone who sounds official, knows just enough to seem credible, and says you have to send money right away is exactly the kind of moment scammers are counting on. Julie Henderson is the president of the North Carolina Bail Agents Association and has spent 24 years working in the bail bond industry. 

She started in the field almost by accident after applying for what she thought was a legislative assistant job, and she has stayed because she cares about helping people get through one of the most stressful situations a family can face. In this episode, Julie explains what is really happening with bail bond scams, how scammers are finding people so quickly, and why these calls can feel so convincing. 

We also learn what a legitimate bail process should look like, what families can do to verify whether someone is actually in jail, and why no one should be rushed into sending gift cards or app payments. She also shares simple ways to prepare before something happens, including using a family password and knowing where to report a scam if one of these calls comes in.

Show Notes:

• [01:51] Julie Henderson explains what bail bondsmen do, how the process works in North Carolina, and why a bondsman’s job is to help ensure clients return to court.
• [04:00] Bail bond scams have increased sharply, with scammers often targeting people who recently had contact with law enforcement.
• [07:16] Common scam tactics include fake ankle monitor fees, gift card demands, urgent threats, and claims that someone will be moved into a dangerous part of the jail.
• [10:55] Legitimate bail agents should answer questions calmly, provide ways to verify the situation, and allow families time to make decisions.
• [13:51] Fake case numbers, badge numbers, and license numbers can sound convincing, so independent verification is essential.
• [16:09] Taking five or ten minutes to verify the facts will rarely affect whether someone can be released.
• [18:15] Public jail records, apps, and online information may help scammers find arrest details quickly.
• [21:42] Bail bond scams are likely underreported because victims may feel embarrassed or believe nothing will be done.
• [23:30] A personal family scam story shows how realistic and emotionally convincing these calls can be.
• [26:53] Education, patience, and clearer communication can help families recognize scams before they send money.
• [29:45] Scam reports should go to the FBI, Internet Crime Complaint Center, state attorneys general, and any agency being impersonated.
• [32:47] Legitimate payment methods vary, but pressure to send gift cards, Cash App, Venmo, or PayPal should raise immediate red flags.
• [35:00] Advice includes trusting your gut, slowing down, and verifying the situation before handing over money.

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• Julie Henderson – North Carolina Bail Agents Association
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Transcript:

Julie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Thanks for having me.

Can you give the audience a little bit of background about who you are and what you do?

Sure. My name is Julie Henderson. I am the current president of the North Carolina Bail Agents Association. I have been a bail bondsman in the state of North Carolina, or in the industry, I should say, for 24 years this year.

Just out of curiosity, and for those that don't know, what are bail bonds people? And then we'll follow up with how did you get into this field? Because it sounds kind of an interesting, really niche market.

I think most of the people that are in the bail industry fall into it, unless they were born into it. I wasn't born into it; I fell into it. I was 24 years old at the time, looking for a job. I saw one that was advertised locally. It was not advertised to do anything with the bail bond industry. I had actually gone for an interview with a state senator who needed a legislative assistant. When I interviewed, I quickly found out that he was also a bail bondsman.

I was hired, and here I am 24 years later, in September of this year. Very interesting position, love it, love the industry, love the profession. Love that I get to help a lot of people. Not everyone that goes to jail, obviously, is a bad person. Perhaps they've made a poor choice, a mistake. I'm very happy to help people through a very difficult time.

What is the bail system in general? Because it's going to vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and how it's implemented. But kind of the big overview is what is bail and how does it work?

Sure. In the state of North Carolina, again, bail is not admitted in all states, but most have some form. North Carolina is, in general, like a lot. We actually have, say, someone that goes to jail on a $1,000 bond, driving my license revoked. That is a very low-level charge. In the state of North Carolina, I can charge up to 15% of that bond. That would be $150.

We would require someone to sign for that individual. A loved one, a parent, a brother, a sister. That helps ensure that that defendant gets back to court each and every time. That is my job, is to get my clients back to court. Whether they are guilty or innocent is up to the courts. It's just my job to get them to court. If they do not go to court, then law enforcement will begin looking for them. A warrant will be issued for their failure to appear in the state. We also are notified.

We also track our cases, and then we immediately start trying to work with that client to get that warrant taken care of. If they do run, then we do have the ability to apprehend and put them back in jail in the state of North Carolina as a bondsman. Let's just say, though, worst-case scenario, I do not find them. If I do not find them, that money is paid in full, the $1,000 to the court. That money in the state of North Carolina goes to the school system.

In my opinion, I relieve taxpayer burden by getting them out of the jail so that they're not sitting there until court. I also don't use office or money for locating them and putting them back in. I also contribute on the back end if I can't find them so that they can see their day in court. Then we pay the bond and it goes to the school system.

Gotcha. Today, we're talking about bail bonds scams. What is the bail bond scam that's going around currently?

They're, in my opinion, after researching and being involved on the front side of that with clients who are getting contacted as I'm trying to help them with a legitimate bail bond and also hearing the aftermath from victims of the other bail bondsmen in the state, this is happening nationwide. There are many, I think, variations of the bail bonding scam that are going around.

It has really taken off in, I would say, the last six to nine months. I can't tell you one bail bondsman that I've encountered in the state of North Carolina who hasn't had it happen to a client. It's definitely more than once. It's almost daily. We have someone contacting us or I'm with a client that I've just bonded out who is still attempted to be getting scammed.

Wow. Is it that they're targeting the general population or are they actually targeting people that have had interactions with law enforcement?

Primarily, those that have had interaction with law enforcement, their loved ones. Additionally, we've also had the variation of a loved one not even being incarcerated at all. A loved one being contacted, a grandmother, or a parent in stating, “Hey, I'm being told that he's in jail and he shouldn't be. He's in the military. He's overseas.” There's several different variations.

I can definitely see how it could be an effective scam because so few people are probably familiar with the bail system. Again, it's the classic sign of a scam. There's a lot of emotion involved. There's a level of authority involved. There's urgency involved. It's all the trifecta that bumps us out of our normal headspace. How do these calls normally go down when someone gets a phone call?

I think I'm giving it almost like a personal feel to it. Put yourself in a parent's position. You're a parent. You get a call. You say, “Hey, your son is in custody in Henderson County Jail and you need to pay me $1,000 or he's going to be put in the back. He's going to be put in with violent criminals. He's going to not see a judge for four days. He's not going to be able to call you.”

Just put yourself in the position of, “Oh, that's my child. I need to get them out of this circumstance.” They are very good about how they work those calls. They will put very high pressure on you and, again, give you every worst-case scenario so that your heart is breaking. You're in a panic to get your loved one out.

They will say not just that they're a bail bondsman. Obviously, “Hey, I'm a bail bondsman. I can have them out in five minutes, but if you don't do it now, then these things are going to happen.” They will also, of course, portray themselves as law enforcement. Say, “So-and-so has been arrested. You need to give us X amount of dollars for either the bond directly or you've got to have an ankle monitor or they won't be released.”

There is usually no ankle monitor even ordered in the circumstances that I have personally encountered. There was an older lady who was attempted to be scammed that I was actually working on the bond for her. She was devastated. “Oh, I'm not going to be able to get him out tonight by the time I speak back to her.” “Ma'am, what are you talking about? He's going to be out in about 20 minutes.”

She said, “No, no, no. They told me if I didn't get this ankle monitor done, and I've got to go down to the CVS and get gift cards.” “No, ma'am. No, ma'am. He will be in my office with no ankle monitor in 20, 30 minutes tops.” They do put the pressure on, and they know how to work it.

What would the normal process be if, because I'm not law enforcement, I don't have much of an experience, wouldn’t it normally be that the person who is in custody, they could call their family member or their lawyer and then, “Hey, please figure out how to get me out”? I don't think, like, is it normal that law enforcement would call on behalf of someone who's been arrested? I can't imagine that a bail bonds company would even know about it in advance.

Not normally. It is normal for someone to contact me from a jail and then they can either contact and reach out to their family, or in the state of North Carolina, I am allowed to call that family member for them or loved one and explain the circumstance to them. But it's not normal in North Carolina for certain, nor any other state that I can recall, for law enforcement to reach out directly and say, “Hey, you've got to pay this money over the phone to me right now through cash app or gift card-type situation.” That should never, ever happen. No law enforcement entity I'm aware of in the United States would do that.

Just so we can kind of see the difference, what would that call from you to a family member of someone who's been incarcerated, what would that phone call look like and compare it with the call that a scammer is going to make?

Right. The scammer call, as we described before, is a fire alarm, fire, it must happen right now. If I'm contacting someone, I state, “I'm Julie Henderson from ANA bonding agency. I'm in Hendersonville, North Carolina. You have a loved one incarcerated in Henderson County Jail. They have reached out to me and asked me to reach out to you on their behalf. They have a thousand-dollar bond.”

What I would need to do, that bond is a fee, which is non-refundable in the state. I need someone to sign for them. I can give you the information of where to look them up online so that you can see that they're there, provide you the number to the jail if you have any further questions so that you can verify that for yourself.

Normally, we would also say, “Meet me at my office so that you can fill out the paperwork, pay the fee. I'll go across the street to do the bond for your loved one and bring them back to my office for paperwork. Then they'll be ready to go, released, and can go on about your day.” If they have questions or concerns, or, “I need to talk to my husband about this before I do this,” “OK, you've got my number. Call us back if you have any questions.” End of story.

I'm not going to call somebody back over and over and over and say, “Hey, you have to get this money to me right now. He's not making bond for five days.” It's the exact opposite: very laid back, very professional, hopefully, answer any questions they might have because there's lots of questions sometimes. I'm calm and I'm patient and I explain that. That's the way it should be done if it's done probably the right way.

This is going to be from my travels to big cities. Are most bail bonds companies 24 hours a day and located right across the street from police stations or jails?

Right. Some states require that you have a brick-and-mortar or office location. Some do not. North Carolina does not. There are lots of bill agents that operate out of their home or whatever and they meet out of jail. I do meet some clients in other counties where I might not have an office location. It can vary from state to state. Are bill agencies notoriously near the jail or courthouse? Yes, they're strategically placed for a reason to be convenient for the client.

But you can also normally find a bail bondsman, say, somebody calls and says they are a bail bondsman and you have a concern. Most states, you can look that information up to ensure that they are in fact licensed. Bail bondsmen in the state of North Carolina have a very specific identification, and certain other states do as well. You can verify that.

You can also call your local jail detention center and verify, “I've got a call from a bail bondsman.” Most of the time, they should be able to point you in the right direction. Either, “Hey, I know that bail bondsman. Yes, they are.” Or, “Never heard of them. You might want to dig a little further.”

That would be one of the key things to do. If you get the phone call and you think it might actually… “I've got this miscreant relative who it wouldn't surprise me if they got arrested and it wouldn't surprise me that they're calling me for bail.” I get this phone call, “OK, so I believe it's true, but I want to operate from the trust but verify.”

Like, “OK, the bail bonds person has called me and said all this. What's the process for verifying it?” Because that was where I would be, is like, “OK, I got the phone call. How do I verify it without information that you've provided?”

Right. Online is—unfortunately, that is the way of the world. While you and I are trying to prevent scams and things of that nature, again, most states have a directory or a listing of bail agents, who is licensed and who is not. In North Carolina, you can verify that on the Judicial North Carolina AOC page.

I cannot remember the actual website, but you can go on there and look up any licensed bail bondsman to see if they are active or in existence. You can also, I believe, find that through the North Carolina Department of Insurance, find a bail bondsman. You can see lists of actual licensed bondsmen.

I assume that you would have, there would be probably some law enforcement case number or identifier of the person who's in the correctional facility?

There is a very specific case number for each individual defendant. I don't want to say too much about that because I believe that other scammers listen to these type of things and get some ideas. But I have heard them provide false case numbers. I have heard them provide false badge numbers of law enforcement and also false licensed numbers of bail bondsmen. So that's why it's important to verify.

I would assume that, if I were perpetrating the scam, I would claim to be a legitimate bail bonds person with their bail bonds ID and with something that looks like it sounds like a case ID. But I assume that you could call the jail and give them that case ID and they could verify, “Yes, we have this person. That is them.”

Usually, just a name and date of birth will get you that. If you're a loved one, you pretty well know that, you know, full name, you'll know at least, an approximate age. Larger detention facilities, that's going to be more difficult. I don't want to say that that might be easy to do. Smaller rural counties, obviously, probably know who's sitting on the bench and who's in a cell right up front versus a larger county.

But it is there and you can verify it. And to my knowledge, five to 10 minutes of just taking a breath and doing a little bit of research has never made it or made it or not OK. And in an instance of getting someone out at five to 10 minutes, it will save a lot of hassle and just verify and peace of mind.

Let's talk about the urgency portion of it. Let's say I get the call and it's legitimate. Yes, my relative is in jail and it's legitimate. Are there [inaudible] where a delay could result in, while they're not going to get out for some period of time? What would that period of time be? Would it be like, “Oh, if you don't pay the bail bonds by the time the court closes, you have to wait till the next court day.” Is that kind of the window that you would expect?

In North Carolina, magistrates in jails are open 24/7. There is no close necessarily. There might be windows that it's not advisable to do it, shift change, something like that. But that doesn't prevent you from being able to get your loved one out. I have seen circumstances where they say, “Hey, if the individual hasn't made bond by shift change, then we are going to move them to the back because we can't hold them in a holding cell up front.”

They do head counts at the start and the end of most shifts top situation. I have seen that. Does that delay it a little bit? It may be a few minutes, but again, not enough that the sky is falling-type circumstance. In North Carolina, also, we have certain laws that are now in place, specifically, Arenas Law Pretrial Integrity Act.

Those go into play. If you already have prior charges that are pending, there is a chance that you may not be able to make bond until you see that judge. And then once you see the judge, you get back to the jail, then you can make bond. The delay on that is no more than the course of, like, 8 a.m. in the morning to perhaps that evening.

Again, it's not comfortable, but it's not life or death. The sky is not falling. That would be the longest that you would potentially be held extra for certain. Even the worst jails in the state for population and shorthand and that sort of thing. No more than a day. I think it's much more advisable. Those are few and far between.

Let's say that I think it's much more advisable to, again, just take that five or 10 minutes because that's not going to make it or break it just to verify what you're dealing with before you are handing over hard-earned money that could potentially help you in the future for your loved one.

I could totally see like, “OK, if I don't have to stress out about it, I don't have to think if the urgency doesn't matter, that I have time to figure out.” It's just legitimate. Like, “What's the case? What's this? What's that?” I have time to figure these things out as opposed to acting quickly. But I could see how it is particularly effective because people are so unfamiliar with the bail system.

You're correct. Not everyone has encountered this. They've never had a loved one go through it. They've never been through it. They prey on that. They definitely are able to get the information very quickly, which is super concerning for bill agents, quicker than the public can get a hold of it.

I think in some cases that we're not quite certain yet where they're getting the data, but they are very good about doing it quickly and they're very good about putting that pressure.

Aside from the cases where we don't know where they are, where the criminals are getting the deal, where are there, like, public records where they're getting this from? That would normally be published in eight hours, 24 hours, 48 hours or something like that.

Certain law enforcement entities, detention centers, they have either a website or an app that you can see inmates go in and out on. My experience personally, I can't speak for all bill agents and the rest of the state, but for my few counties that I deal with, the sheriff's department information does have a lag on it in comparison to some other apps that are available.

And those are publicly available. I do believe that they are seeing someone go in on another app or page quick. Then they're just using white pages or whatever system that they might have to find them or to find their loved one. They immediately contacted them and starting to try to run the scam.

Are you aware of any particular demographics that are either demographics or communities that are targeted or is it pretty much just anyone that's even incarcerated? They're making the phone call.

It is a free-for-all; anyone who's arrested. Anyone is arrested. It's not a certain community or culture. It's not. It's all across the board that they are being targeted, at least again, in my personal experience.

Gotcha. And how big of a problem is it?

It is a huge problem. I hope that I think we're going to talk about how underreported it is, but it is a huge problem. Whatever law enforcement might think it is, I think it's about 100 times worse than they imagined. Again, is not just about one client that we do not deal with anymore in my county who has not been contacted or attention to be scammed them or someone else in their immediate family.

Lots of times we see we're dealing with one family member and another family member is calling them, saying, “Hey, I'm getting this call and we've got to do it now.” I'm saying, “No, no, no, no. That is a scam. That is a scam.” Always a blocked number, of course. Nothing really for people to maybe investigate further until they give some other information.

Why do you think that so few of these cases are getting reported?

Again, from personal experience, talking to individuals who I know who have actually been scammed out of dollars, it is either, one, they don't feel like they need to waste their time—their words, not mine—on filing a report because they don't feel like it will be followed up on. Or two, and I think this is most importantly, in my opinion, embarrassment. They are embarrassed that they were actually scammed and they just want to forget that it ever happened.

I think that's a challenging thing. Whether it's bail scams or any type of scam, there's a large percentage of the population that is, there's a level of embarrassment and humiliation, and, “What are people going to think of me?” They've kind of taken it out of the realm of, “No, you are a victim of a crime,” and made it personal. I get it, it's going to feel very personal if you've been a victim.

I'll segue and ask you this question we talked about a little bit earlier, because I think it is such a big problem that people don't want to talk about it because they are embarrassed. I ask my guests in this space if you've ever been a victim of a scam or fraud, or if a family member has or has close to been a victim because if you and I can't get it right 100% of the time, we should, like, people listening to the podcast shouldn't feel bad or embarrassed or humiliated if they didn't catch it.

There's no reason, first and foremost, for anyone to feel embarrassed in this circumstance. If you were a victim to a bail scam, that just shows me that you've never been involved in the criminal justice system on this side. That could be considered an accolade that you've never had to deal with this side of things. That's first and foremost.

Secondly, I, myself, encountered somewhat of a scam. My grandmother was contacted about two or three years ago. She said she took the call, sounded exactly like my son; he was in middle school at the time. “Grandma” named himself. “Don't tell mom. I need money. I need money now. Please go down to CVS, get some gift cards.” Top scenario. She, of course, panicked. She would have been in her late 80s at that time.

Thankfully, she didn't have a driver's license at that point, or she probably would have done it. She then contacted my mother, my mother then got involved trying to figure out what was going on. They didn't tell the mother of the child until it was pretty much over with because they were both panicked that he was not in school where he was supposed to be and that they needed to figure out this money for him.

Thankfully, my mother called and I said, “Please contact the mother in the future. I can tell you exactly where he is. He's in school. You didn't have to call school. He was there.” They used my son's voice to try and scam my 85/86-year-old grandmother at the time. It almost happened. Thank goodness that didn't. But yes, that was a very personal circumstance.

I can't imagine any grandparent not being alarmed or concerned or wanting to intervene because that's every grandparent is like, “Oh my gosh. Let me let me do something. I'm gonna help out.” The one personal story from a good friend of ours who passed away recently got that phone call of, “Your grandson is in jail, and you need to post bail to get them out.” His responses was, “My grandson is six. If he got himself arrested, he better stay there.”

Correct. Correct.

But I'm sure if at the time his grandson was 16, that it would have been a different story. They'd be like, “OK, I'm gonna move heaven and earth to take care of my family,” and it just pulls so much of our heartstrings. Those sort of things could just so easily bump us out of thinking rationally and we're going to battle. We're going to protect our family, which we're wired to do.

Are there things that we could do? Clearly, we could take a pause, take a breath, verifying everything is not going to change the circumstance of the person who's in jail while we figure it out. Are there changes that need to happen that should or need to happen on the bail bond side or the jail system side that would help prevent this? When it does happen, what should people do?

I'm not certain that anything could necessarily change on the jail side, unless it's found that it's some data breach from within those facilities, or within the criminal justice system in my state or others that these folks are getting access to because, again, they get it so quickly. As bail bondsman, I know that that even little side note, our office has been portrayed, someone portrayed themselves as someone who works here.

I filled out a dummy receipt with our company name on it. We know who it is and we've already filed that police report, so hopefully they charge her with impersonating a bail bondsman, but lovely. But I think even as bail bondsman, we also need to encourage people to make the complaints when we hear about them. We've got to educate the public more and more because, in my opinion, that is the only way to stop this, is education.

Then we have to be sometimes a little more patient ourselves with our clients. Sometimes we're in a hurry because we might be juggling several different people. If they have extra questions that they have, we need to take that extra time. I think suggestion-wise for just the general public—I don't know if I'm skipping ahead, but general public, I didn't have one very good suggestion that we had spoken about at the national level because we're working on how to combat this at the national level as well.

It does create a family password that's unique, just to the family, and that sounds crazy. But it's not bad information to have. That way you might know that it's legitimate that there's a legitimate need. If I, as the general public, got a phone call from anyone portraying themselves to be a bail bondsman, then I would probably be on Google trying to look them up.

Google's got some pretty high-level authentication factors to be listed as a business. That's definitely something that I would be doing beyond looking at, ‘Are they licensed? Are they legitimate?” That might be helpful as well.

I like the password one. My wife and I, we have a password and then we have a duress password.

That's great.

That way, we know that there's a, if there's a legitimate issue, there's the password, or if you know something is happening bad, there's the password, but there's, you know, that authenticates, but it also says, “Hey there's a problem.”

If people want to report it, obviously, there's where you're at in North Carolina, there's specific entities there. But what are the generic or national entities where people get these phone calls where they should report it? Because if law enforcement doesn't know about it, they don't know the magnitude of the problem, they're not going to apply resources to it. When they happen, we need to make complaints. Where do we make them?

It's our suggestion that you go to the FBI. Quite bluntly, these are probably happening across state lines, reporting to local or state agencies might not get where it needs to go, unfortunately. FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center I believe is the link that I had seen at the national level. In many states, the Attorney General, they are anxious to get these complaints and start trying to work on them.

Again, that is at a state level across all agencies that's helpful if it's happening across those county lines, which we know that it probably is. Attorney General's Office, North Carolina NCDOJ, they actually have a phone number that you can call in addition to googling it. They have 877-5-NO-SCAM. Pretty unique, pretty memorable.

That would be definitely one that you could look into the state of North Carolina, and also to follow that up the North Carolina Department of Insurance would like to know about this because they're going to investigate bail bondsman and have some cases that they're looking into.

If the person is claiming to represent local law enforcement where there's a sheriff or police department, should, if someone's getting a call from one of those, supposedly getting a call from one of those agencies with those, do you think those agencies want to know as well.

Absolutely, they're going to want to know. They're going to want to know that somebody's portraying themselves as a deputy or an administrator in their jail or their facility. And we all know that law enforcement—nowhere am I aware of in the entire United States is someone from law enforcement going to call and ask you to cash out Venmo, PayPal, and/or send them gift cards.

That's not going to happen, especially at 11 o'clock at night, it's not going to happen. Absolutely report that to whatever entity they are proclaiming that they are from.

We have it on the record. If a person is going to pay, like, they're not going to go to a bail company, but they're going to pay it directly to the court system.

They could.

What payment methods do they take? In North Carolina, you must take cash money to the magistrate, not to someone in the parking lot who says that they're a magistrate, actually inside the building, probably behind, you know, a security or glass at a desk functioning as the actual magistrate. You can take cash to them. There is no other payment in North Carolina. No checks, no credit cards?

No, cash only. To the magistrate, we need to reinforce that inside the building.

The person behind the glass that's protecting the money.

Yeah, the judicial official, the actual judicial official in the state of North Carolina who is there working. Yes.

When it comes to working, when you're paying the fee to the bail bonds company, what kind of fee—you said that the normal is about 15%. It could potentially vary from state to state, but probably not substantially more than that or less than that. It's rare. What methods of payment do you guys take?

My company only takes cash and card. That is it. I don't take checks. I don't do cash out. I don't do Venmo. I don't do PayPal. I don't do smoke signals. It literally has to be cash or card. Again, I have an office. You are meeting me at my office to make that initial transaction. There are other entities in North Carolina might take either a Cash App or a Square payment or a Venmo, while I might disagree with that.

There's nothing preventing that by law, but also it's one to come down to that pressure. If it's got to be right now, no other way, they're about to go to the firing squad in the back. Let's slow down. Let's take a minute. If it's a legitimate bondsman, they're going to answer your questions. They're going to walk you through it. They're going to be able to verify that they are who they say they are.

And they'll either be able to meet you at their office or at the jail.

Correct. Correct.

That would be a good one. If you're not willing to meet me in person, then you're not legitimate.

Correct.

As we wrap up, is there any other additional parting advice? I think we talked about the family password is a good thing. Anything else that you would recommend?

Just be aware. Just be aware. If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong. We have a gut. Let's listen to it. It's a very high-stress, anxious situation. Just take a breath, verify what you're dealing with. That just five or 10 minutes more to verify the information, again, will probably save you hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars.

That's great. If people want to learn more about the bail system or what you guys do as North Carolina Bail Bonds Agents Association, where can they find you?

We are at NCBA.com. We are a nonprofit. We've been in existence since the 90s, so we're out here fighting for legislation, fighting to protect, promote, preserve the integrity of the bail industry in North Carolina. We're all here. We're all available. And I'd take a question from anybody if they had them.

Awesome. Julie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Thank you, sir, for your time.